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	Comments on: A .5-Baked Theory	</title>
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	<description>Award-winning &#38; New York Times-bestselling author and game designer</description>
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		<title>
		By: quyet		</title>
		<link>https://www.forbeck.com/2004/01/28/a-5-baked-theory/#comment-48366</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[quyet]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[Never underestimate the power of a poor economy to slow luxury industries.  Jobless recovery my ass.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Never underestimate the power of a poor economy to slow luxury industries.  Jobless recovery my ass.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Matt Forbeck		</title>
		<link>https://www.forbeck.com/2004/01/28/a-5-baked-theory/#comment-48365</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt Forbeck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://box19.bluehost.com/~forbeckc/?p=20#comment-48365</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[PaulJohn: 

D&#038;D itself doesn&#039;t belong in a mass-market setting. A basic set, though, might work. PokÃ©mon Jr. apparently did well in Wal-Mart, although not until the price was cut almost in half. Roleplaying, as most of us understand it, is too complicated for the mass. It lacks a broad appeal, much in the same way that needlepoint, RC cars, and tying flies do. There&#039;s a lot there if you love it, but most folks can&#039;t be bothered. 

Chris: 

Redhurst did all right, although not as well as we&#039;d hoped. We&#039;re talking about a sequel, though, so that&#039;s a fine sign. Sadly, it came out at exactly the moment I spoke of in the initial post: right at the release of 3.5.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PaulJohn: </p>
<p>D&amp;D itself doesn&#8217;t belong in a mass-market setting. A basic set, though, might work. PokÃ©mon Jr. apparently did well in Wal-Mart, although not until the price was cut almost in half. Roleplaying, as most of us understand it, is too complicated for the mass. It lacks a broad appeal, much in the same way that needlepoint, RC cars, and tying flies do. There&#8217;s a lot there if you love it, but most folks can&#8217;t be bothered. </p>
<p>Chris: </p>
<p>Redhurst did all right, although not as well as we&#8217;d hoped. We&#8217;re talking about a sequel, though, so that&#8217;s a fine sign. Sadly, it came out at exactly the moment I spoke of in the initial post: right at the release of 3.5.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris Sims		</title>
		<link>https://www.forbeck.com/2004/01/28/a-5-baked-theory/#comment-48364</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Sims]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://box19.bluehost.com/~forbeckc/?p=20#comment-48364</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hey, how did Redhurst Academy do for Human Head? Well, I hope.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, how did Redhurst Academy do for Human Head? Well, I hope.</p>
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		<title>
		By: PaulJohn		</title>
		<link>https://www.forbeck.com/2004/01/28/a-5-baked-theory/#comment-48363</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[PaulJohn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2004 18:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://box19.bluehost.com/~forbeckc/?p=20#comment-48363</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: New Gamers

I agree with Troy regarding bringing new players into the game.  With Hasbro taking over, I thought we would see a little more product showing up in non-game/comic shops.  I&#039;m not sure putting the D&#038;D books in toy stores would work, but while HeroClix, and the new LOTR Mini game from GamesWorkshop have both found their way into Toys R Us, there was no sign of the D&#038;D miniatures game.  

Also, last year, a D&#038;D board game type product was release in England (and possibly elsewhere), but not here in the US.  While not a true RPG, it would certainly be a way to get younger gamers familiar with the D&#038;D brand name.  Perhaps the game never sold well overseas and that is why they never released the game here.

I&#039;m sure there&#039;s probably market research saying that these things wouldn&#039;t make any difference, but they seem like logical ways to attract new customers to D&#038;D, which one would expect to create some trickle down to all the D20 publishers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: New Gamers</p>
<p>I agree with Troy regarding bringing new players into the game.  With Hasbro taking over, I thought we would see a little more product showing up in non-game/comic shops.  I&#8217;m not sure putting the D&amp;D books in toy stores would work, but while HeroClix, and the new LOTR Mini game from GamesWorkshop have both found their way into Toys R Us, there was no sign of the D&amp;D miniatures game.  </p>
<p>Also, last year, a D&amp;D board game type product was release in England (and possibly elsewhere), but not here in the US.  While not a true RPG, it would certainly be a way to get younger gamers familiar with the D&amp;D brand name.  Perhaps the game never sold well overseas and that is why they never released the game here.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s probably market research saying that these things wouldn&#8217;t make any difference, but they seem like logical ways to attract new customers to D&amp;D, which one would expect to create some trickle down to all the D20 publishers.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Mackintosh		</title>
		<link>https://www.forbeck.com/2004/01/28/a-5-baked-theory/#comment-48362</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Mackintosh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2004 10:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://box19.bluehost.com/~forbeckc/?p=20#comment-48362</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I’m hoping that this summer will be a punch in the arm to the industry, but it might be another year before we really recover. In the meantime, we’ll see some consolidation and some lost companies. The trick, of course, is that’s it’s easy to put a small RPG company on life support instead of killing it, so many times they don’t entirely go away.

Ryan once said that the most dangerous spot for a game company is between the half-million a year and $2 million a year marks. At first, I thought he was insane - there are tons of companies that would sell their sould to fall in that range but, as with many things Ryan says, I eventually realized he was right. The small companies (beloww the hal-million mark) are able (as you say) to go on life-support when things get tough. They often have low overhead (sometimes being run on the side of &quot;real world&quot; jobs) so when things get tough, it&#039;s easy for them to wait until things turn around. Above the $2 million mark, the company is often bringing in enough money on a regular basis that they are a proven force in the industry so, when things get tough, they have the ability to still muscle through. In between those two are companies that must pay for things (offices, advertising, warehousing, marketing, etc., etc., etc.) yet they don&#039;t have the income to justify all those expenses and, more importantly, they lack the safety net to easily survive rough spots.

Think about it, during each down-turn in the economy, which game companies have gone under? The majority of them fall into that 1/2 to 2 million range.

Kind of annoying that the companies that are achieving notable success are also the ones at the greatest risk...

Anyhow, enough rambling - my print job has finally sent to the printer so back to work with me. :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m hoping that this summer will be a punch in the arm to the industry, but it might be another year before we really recover. In the meantime, we’ll see some consolidation and some lost companies. The trick, of course, is that’s it’s easy to put a small RPG company on life support instead of killing it, so many times they don’t entirely go away.</p>
<p>Ryan once said that the most dangerous spot for a game company is between the half-million a year and $2 million a year marks. At first, I thought he was insane &#8211; there are tons of companies that would sell their sould to fall in that range but, as with many things Ryan says, I eventually realized he was right. The small companies (beloww the hal-million mark) are able (as you say) to go on life-support when things get tough. They often have low overhead (sometimes being run on the side of &#8220;real world&#8221; jobs) so when things get tough, it&#8217;s easy for them to wait until things turn around. Above the $2 million mark, the company is often bringing in enough money on a regular basis that they are a proven force in the industry so, when things get tough, they have the ability to still muscle through. In between those two are companies that must pay for things (offices, advertising, warehousing, marketing, etc., etc., etc.) yet they don&#8217;t have the income to justify all those expenses and, more importantly, they lack the safety net to easily survive rough spots.</p>
<p>Think about it, during each down-turn in the economy, which game companies have gone under? The majority of them fall into that 1/2 to 2 million range.</p>
<p>Kind of annoying that the companies that are achieving notable success are also the ones at the greatest risk&#8230;</p>
<p>Anyhow, enough rambling &#8211; my print job has finally sent to the printer so back to work with me. 🙂</p>
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		<title>
		By: Matt Forbeck		</title>
		<link>https://www.forbeck.com/2004/01/28/a-5-baked-theory/#comment-48361</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt Forbeck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://box19.bluehost.com/~forbeckc/?p=20#comment-48361</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Chris: 

I don&#039;t think there&#039;s much that small companies can do to help d20 along. That&#039;s up to Wizards. Sword &#038; Sorcery or Mongoose might be able to make a dent, but that&#039;s up to them. 

I&#039;m hoping that this summer will be a punch in the arm to the industry, but it might be another year before we really recover. In the meantime, we&#039;ll see some consolidation and some lost companies. The trick, of course, is that&#039;s it&#039;s easy to put a small RPG company on life support instead of killing it, so many times they don&#039;t entirely go away. 

As for Human Head, we have no d20 products on the schedule at the moment. That&#039;s not because of a lack of faith in the system. We&#039;re doing a few boardgames this year and one RPG, which has a flavor that&#039;s different than that of the d20 system. 

Troy: 

As James points out, Wizards has announced plans for a new basic set. Let&#039;s hope it turns out well. 

James: 

I don&#039;t know that the D&#038;D Basic Set has to be a complete game, but it should do a better job of teaching someone how to play the game than the original introductory set for 3E. The d20 System is complex and must be daunting to a rookie. Anything that the Basic Set can do to ease entry would be a help. 

Another company recently approached me about writing such a starter set. Sadly, I wasn&#039;t in a position to be able to take on the project, but it does mean that other companies out there are considering tackling this problem.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris: </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s much that small companies can do to help d20 along. That&#8217;s up to Wizards. Sword &amp; Sorcery or Mongoose might be able to make a dent, but that&#8217;s up to them. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m hoping that this summer will be a punch in the arm to the industry, but it might be another year before we really recover. In the meantime, we&#8217;ll see some consolidation and some lost companies. The trick, of course, is that&#8217;s it&#8217;s easy to put a small RPG company on life support instead of killing it, so many times they don&#8217;t entirely go away. </p>
<p>As for Human Head, we have no d20 products on the schedule at the moment. That&#8217;s not because of a lack of faith in the system. We&#8217;re doing a few boardgames this year and one RPG, which has a flavor that&#8217;s different than that of the d20 system. </p>
<p>Troy: </p>
<p>As James points out, Wizards has announced plans for a new basic set. Let&#8217;s hope it turns out well. </p>
<p>James: </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know that the D&amp;D Basic Set has to be a complete game, but it should do a better job of teaching someone how to play the game than the original introductory set for 3E. The d20 System is complex and must be daunting to a rookie. Anything that the Basic Set can do to ease entry would be a help. </p>
<p>Another company recently approached me about writing such a starter set. Sadly, I wasn&#8217;t in a position to be able to take on the project, but it does mean that other companies out there are considering tackling this problem.</p>
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		<title>
		By: James Mishler		</title>
		<link>https://www.forbeck.com/2004/01/28/a-5-baked-theory/#comment-48360</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Mishler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://box19.bluehost.com/~forbeckc/?p=20#comment-48360</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[An extremely valid point Troy. Unfortunately for the industry at large, Wizards and only Wizards has the mass market penetration to make a &quot;Basic Dungeons &#038; Dragons&quot; set to bring in the new players. They are actually going to bring out a new &quot;Basic&quot; set later this year, or at least announced intentions to do so. However, since the last Red Box Basic set, no &quot;introductory&quot; level game has ever had the influence and draw those early Basic and Expert sets did (the purple Holmes set, the red/blue Moldvay/Cook set, and the red/blue Menzter set). This is because each was an &quot;introductory&quot; set, not a true &quot;basic&quot; set. Basic sets include everything you need to play and to build your own game. This is greatly at variance with Introductory sets, which require that you must buy further additions or sets in order to continue playing. The Intro set they had at the beginning of 3E was jsut such a set; beyond playing with the prepared characters you could not make your own setting, make your own adventures, or go any further without purchasing the three D&#038;D books. And that&#039;s the mistake I fear they will make with the new &quot;Basic&quot; set. In order for a Basic set to catch on, and draw (or &quot;pull&quot;) new players into 3.5, the big books, splatbooks, campaign books, etc., it must be designed to enable a player to not have to do that; it must be complete and stand on its own. Otherwise the new prospective consumer is going to lose interest rapidly. This has been proven time and again with all the &quot;basic sets&quot; and &quot;intro sets&quot; they&#039;ve had since 1983.

Unfortunately, the folks with the vision and the desire to do it right don&#039;t have the mass market &quot;footprint&quot; to make it work. And some of the new &quot;basic&quot; sets or &quot;simpler&quot; editions that will be coming out this year, while inspired and market niche worthy, do not fit the bill (i.e., &quot;Castles &#038; Crusades&quot; by Troll Lords, &quot;Ultimate Player&#039;s Handbook&quot; (or whatever it is) by Mongoose, etc.)

Only White Wolf/Sword &#038; Sorcery Studios has the mass market penetration to make such a product work. And they are not interested (at least, as far as I have seen so far) in doing any such product.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An extremely valid point Troy. Unfortunately for the industry at large, Wizards and only Wizards has the mass market penetration to make a &#8220;Basic Dungeons &amp; Dragons&#8221; set to bring in the new players. They are actually going to bring out a new &#8220;Basic&#8221; set later this year, or at least announced intentions to do so. However, since the last Red Box Basic set, no &#8220;introductory&#8221; level game has ever had the influence and draw those early Basic and Expert sets did (the purple Holmes set, the red/blue Moldvay/Cook set, and the red/blue Menzter set). This is because each was an &#8220;introductory&#8221; set, not a true &#8220;basic&#8221; set. Basic sets include everything you need to play and to build your own game. This is greatly at variance with Introductory sets, which require that you must buy further additions or sets in order to continue playing. The Intro set they had at the beginning of 3E was jsut such a set; beyond playing with the prepared characters you could not make your own setting, make your own adventures, or go any further without purchasing the three D&amp;D books. And that&#8217;s the mistake I fear they will make with the new &#8220;Basic&#8221; set. In order for a Basic set to catch on, and draw (or &#8220;pull&#8221;) new players into 3.5, the big books, splatbooks, campaign books, etc., it must be designed to enable a player to not have to do that; it must be complete and stand on its own. Otherwise the new prospective consumer is going to lose interest rapidly. This has been proven time and again with all the &#8220;basic sets&#8221; and &#8220;intro sets&#8221; they&#8217;ve had since 1983.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the folks with the vision and the desire to do it right don&#8217;t have the mass market &#8220;footprint&#8221; to make it work. And some of the new &#8220;basic&#8221; sets or &#8220;simpler&#8221; editions that will be coming out this year, while inspired and market niche worthy, do not fit the bill (i.e., &#8220;Castles &amp; Crusades&#8221; by Troll Lords, &#8220;Ultimate Player&#8217;s Handbook&#8221; (or whatever it is) by Mongoose, etc.)</p>
<p>Only White Wolf/Sword &amp; Sorcery Studios has the mass market penetration to make such a product work. And they are not interested (at least, as far as I have seen so far) in doing any such product.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Troy		</title>
		<link>https://www.forbeck.com/2004/01/28/a-5-baked-theory/#comment-48359</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Troy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2004 22:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://box19.bluehost.com/~forbeckc/?p=20#comment-48359</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The biggest problem is that the game currently seems uninterested in bringing in NEW players. Fresh blood.

What happened with the boxed sets?  Why isn&#039;t Wizards interested in bringing NEW people into the hobby?  Rather than just add more and more rules, why aren&#039;t the interested in streamlining the game?

It seems to me that Wizards is just interested in sucking an extra 90 bucks out of it&#039;s current fan base and it reallly doesn&#039;t have any long term plans for the game.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The biggest problem is that the game currently seems uninterested in bringing in NEW players. Fresh blood.</p>
<p>What happened with the boxed sets?  Why isn&#8217;t Wizards interested in bringing NEW people into the hobby?  Rather than just add more and more rules, why aren&#8217;t the interested in streamlining the game?</p>
<p>It seems to me that Wizards is just interested in sucking an extra 90 bucks out of it&#8217;s current fan base and it reallly doesn&#8217;t have any long term plans for the game.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris Sims		</title>
		<link>https://www.forbeck.com/2004/01/28/a-5-baked-theory/#comment-48358</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris Sims]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2004 21:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://box19.bluehost.com/~forbeckc/?p=20#comment-48358</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No worries Matt. I didn&#039;t feel slammed or insulted in any way. The written medium is too easy to misinterpret for me to take things too much to heart. I try to be careful with what I write so others don&#039;t take things the wrong way. I was just trying to clarify&#8212;words like &quot;greed&quot; often carry more weight than I intend to portray.

It&#039;s very intriguing and enlightening being able to speak to you and other game designers. I agree with the fact that Wizards must do what is best for Wizards (with a nod toward what&#039;s best for Hasbro). Everyone has to do that, whether player or corporation, right? Don&#039;t worry, I don&#039;t think in terms of evil corporations trying to hold down or anything. It&#039;s just that playing it safe often leads to very &quot;middle-of-the-road&quot; products. There&#039;s only so much room at the middle of the road, isn&#039;t there?

It&#039;s too bad that innovative things don&#039;t often sell as well. But then, to be realistic, an innovative product may be a niche within what&#039;s already a small market. I look forward to your column on marketing and product quality.

Back on topic: What do you think can ease these d20 doldrums? How long might we have to wait until the market takes a swing up? Will there be some game companies who fall to Darwinian law? Will we see something new in the d20 arena from Human Head any time soon? 

:D]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No worries Matt. I didn&#8217;t feel slammed or insulted in any way. The written medium is too easy to misinterpret for me to take things too much to heart. I try to be careful with what I write so others don&#8217;t take things the wrong way. I was just trying to clarify&#8212;words like &#8220;greed&#8221; often carry more weight than I intend to portray.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s very intriguing and enlightening being able to speak to you and other game designers. I agree with the fact that Wizards must do what is best for Wizards (with a nod toward what&#8217;s best for Hasbro). Everyone has to do that, whether player or corporation, right? Don&#8217;t worry, I don&#8217;t think in terms of evil corporations trying to hold down or anything. It&#8217;s just that playing it safe often leads to very &#8220;middle-of-the-road&#8221; products. There&#8217;s only so much room at the middle of the road, isn&#8217;t there?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s too bad that innovative things don&#8217;t often sell as well. But then, to be realistic, an innovative product may be a niche within what&#8217;s already a small market. I look forward to your column on marketing and product quality.</p>
<p>Back on topic: What do you think can ease these d20 doldrums? How long might we have to wait until the market takes a swing up? Will there be some game companies who fall to Darwinian law? Will we see something new in the d20 arena from Human Head any time soon? </p>
<p>😀</p>
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		<title>
		By: Matt Forbeck		</title>
		<link>https://www.forbeck.com/2004/01/28/a-5-baked-theory/#comment-48357</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matt Forbeck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2004 20:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://box19.bluehost.com/~forbeckc/?p=20#comment-48357</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jeff: 

I agree. However, a single CCG overprint can ruin most companies and has. See ICE, Chaosium, Mayfair, etc. Interesting to see, though, that most of those companies started as RPG outfits and so maybe had less ability to soak a short-term loss than a better-financed startup. 

Chris: 

I certainly didn&#039;t mean to slam you there, and I hope it didn&#039;t come across that way. I certainly understand your feelings about this. My point was that Wizards is only beholden to Wizards. If they harm the d20 industry as a byproduct of actions that benefit them, they can hardly be faulted--although I don&#039;t believe for a moment that they intended such a thing. 

It&#039;s good to be idealistic. Hold on to that. I love unique work myself. I also know that it historically hasn&#039;t sold as well as things that are easier to digest. That&#039;s a whole other topic though. 

I&#039;m optimistic about the industry as a whole. I just put forth a theory as to why the d20 sector seems to have stumbled at this particular time. 

Paul W and PaulJohn: Thanks for your notes. It all helps to illuminate the situation.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff: </p>
<p>I agree. However, a single CCG overprint can ruin most companies and has. See ICE, Chaosium, Mayfair, etc. Interesting to see, though, that most of those companies started as RPG outfits and so maybe had less ability to soak a short-term loss than a better-financed startup. </p>
<p>Chris: </p>
<p>I certainly didn&#8217;t mean to slam you there, and I hope it didn&#8217;t come across that way. I certainly understand your feelings about this. My point was that Wizards is only beholden to Wizards. If they harm the d20 industry as a byproduct of actions that benefit them, they can hardly be faulted&#8211;although I don&#8217;t believe for a moment that they intended such a thing. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s good to be idealistic. Hold on to that. I love unique work myself. I also know that it historically hasn&#8217;t sold as well as things that are easier to digest. That&#8217;s a whole other topic though. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m optimistic about the industry as a whole. I just put forth a theory as to why the d20 sector seems to have stumbled at this particular time. </p>
<p>Paul W and PaulJohn: Thanks for your notes. It all helps to illuminate the situation.</p>
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